tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post5716419508888722588..comments2024-02-19T11:10:16.893-08:00Comments on Brown Moses Blog: Is The Syrian Military Using Another Type Of Chemical Weapon?Brown Moseshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17562126209980810351noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-35928688414215922722014-04-13T15:23:46.175-07:002014-04-13T15:23:46.175-07:00I've been in the ordnance business almost my e...I've been in the ordnance business almost my entire life, well over 40 years now. And I have always known rockets like these as Improvised rockets, Improvised rocket assisted munitions (IRAMs), etc. Even in Vn we called them improvised rockets when the VC used 107, 140 and 122 rockets with over caliber warheads. The IRA called them something similar. I have heard the trend Eskimo, but always as a Russian term. UMLACA I have only seen in these blogs and some others have picked that term up now. But the US called them IRAMs. As for the fuze - most ever one has it wrong. Most of the fuzes used on the Syrian IRAMs come from Iraq and Afghan. They are mostly spring loaded (that is firing bolt with multiple firing pins held under spring tension. A clip hold the firing bolt in place and a line goes from it to the launcher. When fired the clip is pulled loose, the spring drives the firing bolt into multiple bullet cartridges, normally .22 cal but others have been used. inserted into each cartridge is time fuze, the time fuze burns down and sets off non electric blasting caps and the main HE charge. These fuzes are very well machined and work just fine. It is the time fuze that screws up. There are other point detonating fuzes, but not that many. But at this time we still consider them as being classified. And remember nomenclatures are not always the same, what the Soviets call an ABCS-1, the US and NATO may call it a squirrel, just saying. Also as far as the the MIT guys with their statements about ranges, keep in mind they did their calc's without even knowing what size rocket motor was used, who made it or even what model. Just saying -while I would love to post everything I know about the Syrian chem rockets, I can't because of classifications, but I can say there is a lot about them that has been posted that is wrong. You can't do a good ID of a new system like these if you don't have good measurements and actual hands on. And everything that has been posted has been from looking at pictures and from people on the ground who have no technical knowledge about weapons systemsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05942794963336594882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-81602008064692328142014-04-13T15:22:36.431-07:002014-04-13T15:22:36.431-07:00I've been in the ordnance business almost my e...I've been in the ordnance business almost my entire life, well over 40 years now. And I have always known rockets like these as Improvised rockets, Improvised rocket assisted munitions (IRAMs), etc. Even in Vn we called them improvised rockets when the VC used 107, 140 and 122 rockets with over caliber warheads. The IRA called them something similar. I have heard the trend Eskimo, but always as a Russian term. UMLACA I have only seen in these blogs and some others have picked that term up now. But the US called them IRAMs. As for the fuze - most ever one has it wrong. Most of the fuzes used on the Syrian IRAMs come from Iraq and Afghan. They are mostly spring loaded (that is firing bolt with multiple firing pins held under spring tension. A clip hold the firing bolt in place and a line goes from it to the launcher. When fired the clip is pulled loose, the spring drives the firing bolt into multiple bullet cartridges, normally .22 cal but others have been used. inserted into each cartridge is time fuze, the time fuze burns down and sets off non electric blasting caps and the main HE charge. These fuzes are very well machined and work just fine. It is the time fuze that screws up. There are other point detonating fuzes, but not that many. But at this time we still consider them as being classified. And remember nomenclatures are not always the same, what the Soviets call an ABCS-1, the US and NATO may call it a squirrel, just saying. Also as far as the the MIT guys with their statements about ranges, keep in mind they did their calc's without even knowing what size rocket motor was used, who made it or even what model. Just saying -while I would love to post everything I know about the Syrian chem rockets, I can't because of classifications, but I can say there is a lot about them that has been posted that is wrong. You can't do a good ID of a new system like these if you don't have good measurements and actual hands on. And everything that has been posted has been from looking at pictures and from people on the ground who have no technical knowledge about weapons systemsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05942794963336594882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-25449090588035272482013-11-18T07:33:15.443-08:002013-11-18T07:33:15.443-08:00"...a white cable coming out the rear of the ..."...a white cable coming out the rear of the munition that appears to be the command cable..."<br /><br />It may not have any electronic 'command' purpose. It could be a simple mechanical arming lanyard for the tail device. Something like pulling the pin on a grenade. It's a cheap way to give some measure of safety at launch (however remote) by arming a meter or two after it leaves the launcher. <br /><br />Next most likely after that is power for an electronic fuze. The fuze stores enough of a charge after launch to operate, but is charging until then. This is used on a lot of air-dropped munitions - it's just a power cable. <br /><br />A signal cable would make sense if there was some sophisticated fuzing or guidance involved. By the looks of the device, I would think not.<br /><br />If you watch the first 'big' can launch (the red beret guys), you can see the armorer fuzing both the nose and the tail of the can. The nose fuze is unusually long, like a stand-off probe. The tail charge is hard to see when inserted but seems roughly the size of the 'bicycle pump' thing. It reminds me of an RPG motor. PavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-5868748169243488252013-11-15T04:16:19.854-08:002013-11-15T04:16:19.854-08:00Noha307 > you are one of the regular contributo...<i><b>Noha307</b> > you are one of the regular contributors to the WarOnline site?</i><br />No. There is a low level compared with the monsters as: Moses, Sasa, Petri, Charles…<br />You have so much courtesy and so many questions - you're not from the KGB?<br /><br /><i>Is the thing pictured next to the title on your blog the popsicle/ice cream "Eskimo" refers to? </i><br />Hmm ... I was very surprised by your surprise from the "Eskimo". This is an American ice cream is known around the world for a hundred years! Why do you don't remember it, what happened?<br /><br /><i>• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_Pie</i><br />Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-77063487855232622512013-11-14T22:02:26.173-08:002013-11-14T22:02:26.173-08:00Thank you! This link is excellently specific. It d...Thank you! This link is excellently specific. It does demonstrate that this term popped up relatively soon after the attack. Maybe this is a stupid question, but the website you provided the link to is the "Israeli military forum", correct? I only ask because it doesn't seem Israeli. (Although, I don't really know what that would be.) On the other hand, I did a quick search while writing this post, and found that Alexa.com (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/waronline.org) does say that 24% of its visitors are from Israel. My only other question is, can I safely assume that you are one of the regular contributors to the WarOnline site? Actually, I just realized I have one more question: Is the thing pictured next to the title on your blog the popsicle/ice cream "Eskimo" refers to? Sorry for all the questions, but this is intriguing.Noha307https://www.blogger.com/profile/00370569155512909375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-12774210840310951112013-11-14T15:51:44.271-08:002013-11-14T15:51:44.271-08:00Noha307 > …a link…
War Online > Contemporar...<i><b>Noha307</b> > …a link…</i><br /><br />War Online > Contemporary conflicts > Chemical attack on Eastern Gghouta and Maadamia August 21 > page 25 (September 8, 2013)<br /><br />http://waronline.org/fora/index.php?threads/%D0%A5%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%92%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%8E-%D0%93%D1%83%D1%82%D1%83-%D0%B8-%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8E-21-%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0.2879/page-25#post-272752Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-53359102874515307372013-11-14T15:23:11.206-08:002013-11-14T15:23:11.206-08:00I hope you'll forgive me, I'm having sligh...I hope you'll forgive me, I'm having slight bit of difficulty with understanding the broken English. I don't mean this as an insult, I just wanted to say that I may miss exactly the idea you're trying to convey.<br /><br />The "Eskimo" term originated in an "Israeli military forum"? Hmm... Repeating my last point in my post above, could you provide a link to either the post where the term was first used or if not, a link to the overall forum? This sounds interesting - I would like to investigate it myself.Noha307https://www.blogger.com/profile/00370569155512909375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-83246997341649787222013-11-14T15:11:55.492-08:002013-11-14T15:11:55.492-08:00Thank you! I wouldn't mind updating the graphi...Thank you! I wouldn't mind updating the graphic with more precise measures and details - looks like it can come in handy. The original 570mm calibre measurement was based on info from Lucum, by the way. Amund Hesbølhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989927930117347129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-83962078532507416082013-11-14T14:34:10.090-08:002013-11-14T14:34:10.090-08:00Mr. Hesbol, that's excellent work - thanks! Po...Mr. Hesbol, that's excellent work - thanks! Posted 7 days ago, huh? Looks like you have excellent timing as well. While, I understand from the above discussion the dimensions and details may or may not be exactly correct, it still tells me what I wanted to know. The only suggestion I have is possibly throwing in something of an known size for reference (e.g. human silhouette, etc.). Either way, it's a better depiction than my attempt using GIMP: postimg.org/image/gdoeh8to1 (It was even based off <a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17589489070675971899" rel="nofollow">someone else</a>'s drawing: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109527735/draw_rocket_saa_2.png I was attempting to show difference between the markings on the rockets with different warheads, not size difference though.)Noha307https://www.blogger.com/profile/00370569155512909375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-4584318917521315022013-11-14T14:12:40.067-08:002013-11-14T14:12:40.067-08:00Amund Hesbøl > But feel free to provide your ow...<i><b>Amund Hesbøl</b> > But feel free to provide your own size comparison.</i><br /><br />No problem, see "Different tail".Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-53084254058934109372013-11-14T11:36:09.016-08:002013-11-14T11:36:09.016-08:00The proportions look very similar to me, about 1.5...The proportions look very similar to me, about 1.5x the small UMLACA. But feel free to provide your own size comparison. Amund Hesbølhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989927930117347129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-23128911347763950072013-11-14T11:23:37.889-08:002013-11-14T11:23:37.889-08:00Amund Hesbøl > Yes.
No.
What is wrong?
"D...<i><b>Amund Hesbøl</b> > Yes.</i><br /><br />No.<br />What is wrong?<br />"Dumbo" barrel length should be 2 times greater than the "Eskimo" from Zamalka ~ 1.4 meters, for example.<br />"Big mistake" - no nose fairing. Pam Anderson without boobs and Pam Anderson with tits - two big differences, huh?Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-43667756714186576002013-11-14T11:09:28.711-08:002013-11-14T11:09:28.711-08:00Oh, I see, it should be 222mm. Yes. "BIG Mist...Oh, I see, it should be 222mm. Yes. "BIG Mistake"Amund Hesbølhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989927930117347129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-1374708420020841642013-11-14T11:02:46.300-08:002013-11-14T11:02:46.300-08:00Ok, what's the correct outer diameter in your ...Ok, what's the correct outer diameter in your opinion, then?Amund Hesbølhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989927930117347129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-86910783633723499982013-11-14T09:36:05.652-08:002013-11-14T09:36:05.652-08:00Amund Hesbøl > We dont really know much about t...<i><b>Amund Hesbøl</b> > We dont really know much about the nosecones yet</i><br />Nothing needs to know, moreover, that it is at "Dumbo".<br /><br /><i>> The 200mm designation should be 220mm, btw.</i><br />All wrong there, btw.Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-40390501532385418192013-11-14T08:02:51.644-08:002013-11-14T08:02:51.644-08:00Certainly seems to have done a lot of damage for i...Certainly seems to have done a lot of damage for its size.<br />The piece left inside the building is very shiny. (Titanium or very hard-anodized aluminium.)<br /><br />see:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPO-A_Shmel<br /><br />Note very shiny warhead section and the twist-out fins which can be seen in the film.<br /><br />This device ("Shmel" apparently means "bumblebee") is confusingly described as a "flamethrower" by the manufacturer, because it usually throws an incendiary shell, but there's a fuel air explosive round as well, and a smoke one. (It's a bit too short ranged for poison gas).<br /><br />It's like a one-shot anti-tank rocket, except that it's designed to gut buildings. (Not necessarily bring them down.)<br /><br />The Chechen resistance described this weapon as "the devil stick" or similar during the Russian demolition of Grozny. <br /><br />If it isn't an RPO-A, it's something really like it, a size bigger. (RPO-A is 93mm dia. There is apparently a 220mm vehicle launched munition which does the same thing on a larger scale.)<br /><br />This is made in a factory, not improvised at all: note that the inside of the warhead container is ribbed to stiffen it against nose-on impact whilst allowing it to split open afterwards. The warhead casing is an extrusion, not something bent to shape in someone's garage.<br /><br />But it is used over similar ranges and with similar effect to some of the IRAMs described above, so mlacix is on the right track. Being a shoulder-fired FAE, it may very well do similar damage to the much larger and clumsier IRAMs whilst being much easier to carry and bring into action.<br /><br />You really are looking at "Made in Russia" but it might have been something captured by Chechen fighters who are now fighting in the Syrian civil war, or it might be something which the Russians have supplied to the government.<br /><br />That's a useful piece of film: thank you. <br /><br />PS: (rather than having a discrete bursting charge, it's effectively filled with small particles of solid explosive emulsified in liquid fuel, and on impact this makes a "soft" detonation to form a fuel-rich cloud of warm gas which mixes with the air inside the target very quickly to produce a critical mixture and a second, violent detonation. Much shorter timeline than most FAEs, which may suit the tactics of assaulting infantry units. This is not a weapon for people who don't know EXACTLY what they are doing.)Medawarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05119173935699236303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-56445084492599194532013-11-14T07:34:51.216-08:002013-11-14T07:34:51.216-08:00Whatever the nomenclature or the agent contained, ...Whatever the nomenclature or the agent contained, it's pretty incontestable that the munition which delivered the brown liquid was designed to do so. There must have been an intended purpose of some kind, unless someone was firing gravy browning on a whim.<br /><br />If the brown liquid was meant to be incendiary, one would normally expect it to be mixed with something sticky or a gelling agent: simple liquid fuels don't actually deliver a very high surface temperature as they tend to boil off and burn in the air, or soak into the ground and not burn. Napalm makes the target hotter than plain petrol would, and improvised alternatives usually have tar, polystyrene or natural rubber dissolved in a flammable liquid (generally benzene in the case of rubber) to produce the same sort of persistent flame clinging close to the target's surface.<br /><br />We could do with a bit of context: what was there near the impact point that might have been most efficiently destroyed by:<br /><br />1/ a fuel air explosive.<br /><br />2/ a toxin primarily lethal to people.<br /><br />3/ a herbicide primarily lethal to crops.<br /><br />4/ a herbicide that would also be significantly lethal to people. <br /><br />5/ some kind of bacterial broth.<br /><br />I would have thought that the only real point to firing a bacterial broth over a short range would be to target the water supply for a besieged area, but that's a tactic as old as warfare so it can't easily be ruled out.<br /><br />There was comment on earlier posts about fuel air explosives landing on cabbage fields, and if the vegetable field was playing a significant role in allowing a group to hold a particular town against a siege, then the cabbages might actually have been the target. <br /><br />The food supply has been a target for besieging armies since biblical times. Medawarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05119173935699236303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-16652170637220590652013-11-14T07:16:30.166-08:002013-11-14T07:16:30.166-08:00Not every national safety authority would agree wi...Not every national safety authority would agree with the EPA on that one.<br />There have been inhalation fatalities after paraqat was tipped on bonfires. If Mr Wood thinks it's safe, he can bathe in it, but he will find few volunteers to do likewise. Comparing it with salt is fatuous.<br /><br />In any case, the probable objective would be to destroy crops being grown in besieged areas, for which purpose it would be hard to find a more effective agent.<br />Medawarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05119173935699236303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-48298308775235758732013-11-14T03:52:43.221-08:002013-11-14T03:52:43.221-08:00We dont really know much about the nosecones yet, ...We dont really know much about the nosecones yet, in terms of how big, when they're used and so on. Besides, this illustration is for size comparison only. The 200mm designation should be 220mm, btw.Amund Hesbølhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989927930117347129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-29467167448490776712013-11-14T03:28:09.044-08:002013-11-14T03:28:09.044-08:00Amund Hesbøl > Here you go: http://twitpic.com/...<i><b>Amund Hesbøl</b> > Here you go: http://twitpic.com/dkdosd</i><br /><br />"Big Mistake"<br />Eskimo-222/570 has a conical fairing.<br />But Eskimo-122/360 really has no fairing, the only case of all over-caliber ammunition.Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-32093515805578788792013-11-14T03:17:25.035-08:002013-11-14T03:17:25.035-08:00Noha307 > Unless a person is from Russia…
Misl...<i><b>Noha307</b> > Unless a person is from Russia…</i><br /><br />Misleading.<br />Russian in Rossia do not discuss "chemical attack" because they know - it's another lie of all known sequence: Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya ... The term "Eskimo" came from Israeli military forum - there are very closely watching what is happening at the neighbors. I hope you're not an anti-Semite?Lucumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601047267335818966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-91899406587708623212013-11-14T01:16:52.532-08:002013-11-14T01:16:52.532-08:00Here you go: http://twitpic.com/dkdosd
Here you go: http://twitpic.com/dkdosd<br />Amund Hesbølhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09989927930117347129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-59630935048304851372013-11-13T18:16:31.804-08:002013-11-13T18:16:31.804-08:00I feel like I'm always late to the party...oh ...I feel like I'm always late to the party...oh well.<br /><br />I would like to urge everyone to remain civil in the discussions here. I don't think it serves anyone - or the discussion - well to make insults, witty comebacks or some combination of the two.<br /><br />Some constructive criticism:<br /><br /> - I think the title of this post is a bit misleading - it implies that there has been a more definitive confirmation that the rocket is CW related than seems to have really been determined. As it stands, it seems to me that no evidence has been presented that directly links the new rocket to chemical weapons - only circumstantial evidence.<br /><br /> - Referring to the rockets used in the attack on Ghouta as "Eskimo" is confusing. Unless a person is from Russia, it seems unlikely that they will get the reference. In regards to the comment that the name "Eskimo" is "snappier", I would like to suggest that it is important that the name is descriptive more than anything else and I don't understand why being "snapp[y]" is important. It is possible I am misunderstanding the meaning of "snapp[y]", but I don't think I am. To me, the second most important characteristic of a name is being easily recognizable by everyone - and this is why I believe the term "Eskimo" is not a good one.<br /><br /> - It was stated that "the only place it is called UMLACA is this blog. Elsewhere it is called an Eskimo". I believe the obvious implication is that everyone else uses the term "Eskimo". Googling "Eskimo Syria Rocket" returns for the first 3 results comments on this blog that used the phrase. After that, no results used the term Eskimo in a meaningful relation to the rockets in question. On the other hand, while googling "UMLACA Syria Rocket" also returns results from this blog, it also turns up results from other websites using this phrase. And while all or almost all of these picked up the term from BMB, it demonstrates the penetration of the term in at least online media. (Admittedly, "UMLACA" is a more distinct phrase, but I think the results still stand.) So, I politely ask that someone provide some links to webpages that make use of the term "Eskimo" as these should be easily locatable given the supposed ubiquity of the term.Noha307https://www.blogger.com/profile/00370569155512909375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-37896669977831464642013-11-13T18:14:39.070-08:002013-11-13T18:14:39.070-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Noha307https://www.blogger.com/profile/00370569155512909375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4871088750473093560.post-36664152448089618752013-11-13T17:21:28.338-08:002013-11-13T17:21:28.338-08:00The above is a good idea. What would really be inf...The above is a good idea. What would really be informative is a visual size comparison between the two. Does anyone know where I could find such a comparison or could otherwise provide one? (I hate to be the one always asking for images and diagrams, but I'm a visual sort of person.)Noha307https://www.blogger.com/profile/00370569155512909375noreply@blogger.com