Chinese MANPADS In Syria : Does 2 + 2 = FN-6?

Last month I wrote about videos of Chinese FN-6 MANPADS (surface-to-air missiles) filmed in Deir Ez-Zor, and raised the question of the possible source.  A video then posted 10 days later showed one of the MANPADS being used to shoot down a Hip transport helicopter at Menagh Air Base near Aleppo

Surrounded by the Syrian opposition since January 2013 opposition fighters in the area have claimed the FN-6 MANPADS are part of a no-fly zone they've imposed around the air base.  

In the last couple of days a pair of news reports have been published which may provide some possible clues to where these new MANPADS have come from.  The first, from the Guardian, reports

Another opposition figure involved in supplying the rebels said there had been a noticeable relaxation in recent days of the strict restrictions the US and Turkey had put on arms flows over the Turkish border. He claimed a Syrian army helicopter and a Mig warplane had been shot down in the past two days, for the first time by imported missiles.
"These were not weapons that had been captured from Syrian army bases as before. These were released from the Turkish warehouses. These are weapons the opposition had purchased previously but had not been allowed to take across the border," the opposition source said.
"Before, 23mm was the maximum calibre for anti-aircraft guns permitted and we were allowed to bring in RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades] but not armour-piercing shells. But there is a major shift on the ground now. The policy is changing.

Then there's this report from Reuters

Syrian rebels have received advanced weapons aimed at narrowing the arms gap with President Bashar al-Assad's forces and reinforcing a new rebel military command which Western countries hope can dilute the strength of Islamist fighters.
Several rebel commanders and fighters told Reuters that a shipment which reached Syria via Turkey last month comprised shoulder-held and other mobile equipment including anti-aircraft and armor-piercing weapons, mortars and rocket launchers.

These are not the only MANPADS to make an appearance in the north of Syria in recent week.  In a recent blog post Damien Spleeters discussing a video showing the first example of complete SA-24 MANPADS seen in the conflict so far.  With claims that appear to point towards MANPADS now being supplied to the Syrian opposition could one of these, or both, be the first examples of these newly supplied MANPADS appearing in Syria?


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Something Everyone Should Know About SA-24 MANPADS

A number of people have sent me this video, which claims to show a complete SA-24/9K338 Igla-S MANPADS

The SA-24 is one of the most advanced shoulder fired surface-to-air missiles in the world, so capturing complete systems would be a massive boon to the rebels, but in this example there's actually nothing much to get excited about.  What we are seeing here is a training model, and how do we know that?  First of all the entire system is painted silver, indicating it's a training version, but even if a Syrian soldier had got carried away with some silver paint on a working model we also have this rather important word written on the missile tube and grip-stock:

 

Steve Zaloga, editor of Teal Group’s “World Missiles and UAV Briefing” explained the meaning of the word:

The Russian word Maket is borrowed from the French (maquette) and means “Model” rather than mock-up. Maket is painted on Russian training weapons so that troops don’t confuse them with the real thing.

This hasn't stopped some opposition groups waving them around like they could actually do any damage, for example the Islam Brigade

The fact is the only way these "Maket" SA-24s will ever damage a helicopter is if someone uses it as a club to hit a helicopter while it's still on the ground.

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You can contact the author on Twitter @brown_moses or by email at brownmoses@gmail.com

Sky News Arabic Misidentifies Weapons As SA-24 MANPADS

A number of people have sent me this video from Sky News Arabic, showing what they claim to be "AS-24 MANPADS", by which I assume they mean SA-24 MANPADS (Man-portable air-defense systems) , describing them as "heat seeking missiles"

Now as followers of my blog will know I'm very interested in videos that show MANPADS, especially SA-24s, the most advanced system used by the Syrian army.  The problem with this video is what they are showing is definitely not a SA-24.  To begin with here's a reference picture of a complete SA-24, plus it's missiles

From the "missiles" shown on the video we can see they don't belong to an SA-24, and weapon itself seems far too thick.  As I highlighted in this post about SA-7s in the hands of the opposition, SA series missile tubes tend to come in pairs in a very particular kind of crate, and the single weapon shown is in the wrong kind of crate.

So what is it?  The projectiles appear to be the same type used by the SPG-9 recoilless gun, and this image gives a fairly clear view of the weapon

Source

In this picture from the Sky News Arabic video we get a show of the weapon from the top and rear end of the barrel

And a close up

This appears to show the black strap and what I believe is the sight of the SPG-9, and in my mind clearly shows this is not an SA-24 as claimed.  SPG-9s are now a fairly common sight in the conflict, in particular in and around Aleppo, so this sighting really isn't very exciting, and an SPG-9 is certainly no threat whatsoever to any aircraft.

It's very important when reporting on weapon sightings in Syria to be sure of what you are actually seeing.  The opposition often misidentifies weapons, be it accidentally through ignorance, or a purposeful attempt to deceive, and we've often seen L-39s described as MiGs, or a whole variety of small arms described as AK-47s.  While this might not seem like a big issue it does confuse matters, and when the opposition gets their hands on a working SA-24 that's very significant, so it pays to be 100% sure.

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Video Shows Captured SA-16 And SA-24 Surface To Air Missiles

Following my earlier post examining evidence of SA-24 and SA-16 surface to air missile captured by Syrian opposition groups a video has been posted on Youtube which appears to show the same missiles captured, along with a large number of other weapons

Here are some key frames from the video that provides more details on what has been captured.
Thanks to Steve Zaloga and Matt Schroeder for additional information.

At the start of the video we see two crates, one holding a cutaway demonstration model of a missile, and a yellow demonstration model of the SA-24, both totally useless.

The two crates above those crates hold a pair of live SA-24 missile tubes each.

As the camera pans over we catch a glimpse of two more live SA-24 missile tubes on the right side of the screen.

The camera than shows a AT-3 anti-tank missile.

Before quickly panning over a pair of training SA-24s, again not much use to the Syrian opposition.

The camera pans up to show two crates containing a pair of training SA-24s each, along with the grip stock, and just in the top left corner we spot another pair of live SA-24 missile tubes.

The camera than quickly pans across, and for a brief moment on the right hand side of the screen we see what appears to be the edge of a live SA-16 missile tube, and more importantly what appears to be two spare SA-16 batteries.  This means the only missing component for a complete SA-16 missile system is the grip-stock.

Finally we have another pair of training SA-24s, followed by a massive amount of guns and other items.

So in total we appear to have
- 10 training or demonstration SA-24s.
- 8 live SA-24 missile tubes.
- 1-2 live SA-16 missile tubes
- 2 SA-16 batteries.

It's still unclear if live SA-16 or SA-24 grip-stocks have been captured, and training grip-stocks will not work with the live missile tubes.  However, there were reports of a helicopter shot down in the area today, as well as video of a downed Hip Mi-8, although it's impossible to know if these events were related at this stage.


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You can contact the author on Twitter @brown_moses or by email at brownmoses@gmail.com

New Type Of Shoulder Mounted Surface To Air Missile Captured By The Opposition

Update November 16th Video footage has now been posted showing the SA-24 missiles described in this post, a detailed analysis of which can be found here.

During the conflict in Syria a great deal of attention has been paid to SA-7 shoulder mounted surface to air missiles, but these are not the only type of shoulder mounted surface to air missiles in the hands of the Syrian military.

Until now there's been no evidence of these systems being captured by the opposition, but this picture shows one system, an SA-16, that was reportedly captured by Ansar al-Islam from an air defence in East Ghouta, near Damascus

Currently there's very little other information about the equipment captured, with no indication of the number of systems captured, and while it appears the battery is present it's unclear if the grip stock is also present.

Update November 13th Another new type of surface to air missile has been spotted, apparently looted from Babla Base air defence base by Ansar al-Islam, and interestingly this appears to be an SA-24 system,  the latest generation of Russian surface to air missiles

It's also been pointed out to me it appears to be the same man holding both missile systems.

Update November 14th Thanks to @penym2 who has noted that the word on the gripstock of the SA-24 might be "MAKET", the Russian word for mock-up, although it's not possible to be 100% sure due to the quality of the photograph.

The Damascus Tribune blog has also been able to gather some more details on the base attacked 

AFter some research I found out that they were captured from Bala Air Defense Base near Mleiha town of Damascus Suburbs in Eastern Ghouta (Not Babla) by Ansar al-Islam as they said in a statement they issued on their Facebook page.

Update November 14th Thanks to Steve Zaloga, editor of Teal Group’s “World Missiles and UAV Briefing”, who emailed me some very interesting information on the SA-24 pictured

When a country buys a MANPADS system, they get a standard package which includes several different types of training missiles. One type is a simple, non-functional cut-away dummy which is used to train operators on the basic construction of the weapon. They also get some non-functional models which are used for very simple training (pointing, etc.) The most elaborate type is a functional trainer which operates like the real thing and has a functioning seeker (but not a warhead or rocket motor) so that the trainee can understand what happens when they operate the real thing. The most elaborate type is a trainer that hooks into a desk-top computer simulator where the computer can be used to generate targets that are viewed on a small video device attached to the gripstock.

I can’t tell from your photo, but it would seem to be one of the functional trainers, and not a simple dummy. On these MANPADS, the gripstock (the lower section with the trigger, thermal battery and electronic package) is reusable, while the missile in its launch tube/transport tube, and the thermal battery are replaced for each launch.

BTW, the Russian word Maket is borrowed from the French (maquette) and means “Model” rather than mock-up. Maket is painted on Russian training weapons  so that troops don’t confuse them with the real thing. Likewise, they are often painted in a different color (such as silver) for the same reason.

I have no specific details on what Syria has purchased in recent years. The Russians do not usually list their sales on the UN Arms Register, or if they do, it is limited to some very generic data (160 missiles, vs. 160 Igla-S, etc). The fact that the Syrians have the gripstock trainer strongly suggests that they got it  as part of a package with the functional weapons.

Update November 15th This photo has been posted showing the missile tubes for at least 12 MANPADS, possibly SA-24s.  Hugely significant if they have complete systems

This page claims that they were captured by the Jesus son of Mary Battalion at the above mentioned Bala Air Defense Base.  It should be noted without gripstocks and batteries these missiles are useless, and neither of them are pictured.

Update November 15th Another photograph has been posted online, which appears to again show the training model of the SA-24, as well as an unrelated anti-tank rocket.  It's rather interesting no pictures of batteries or grip-stocks have been posted, which may suggest the systems are incomplete

Update November 15th A number of videos have been posted on this channel filmed at the Bala air defence base featuring the previously mentioned "Jesus son of Mary Battalion".  The description for the videos claim that they fought alongside Ansar al-Islam and the Nasser Saladin Battalion, capturing 23mm weapons (likely ZU-23-2s), SA-16s, and "Malocka" anti-armour missiles, which I believe are AT-3 missiles

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